Yes, but werneri is a debated taxon = insufficiently substantiated. 

I see.
Even if we consider that data valid, what is the distribution of those ssp in Greece? 

Well, as long as the subspecies has not been clearly identified, it is impossible to delimit its range. In other words: no one knows (yet). 

Ok Jeroen, thanks! 

Ilias,
I had a poster (PDF) from Bogaerts, Pasmans on Salamandra s. werneri, but I´ve lost it!
I have asked Serge now again to mail it to me.
They have presented it before a few years on the DGHT Urodela meeting in Gersfeld/Germany.
And they will present it updated at the SEH meeting in Kusadasi last year again (Serge told me before the congress).
Meanwhile you may look here:

http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/Salamandra_guide.shtml

Mario 

Thanks Mario
It says only mount Pelion for werneri. Who knows what is really valid :-) I hope they found out soon. 

Mario, of course, I know about that poster (although I should also like where I've saved it...). It only presents morphology + of a (very) small sample. Very precarious to make big conclusions based on that, eventhough it's a step. 

Here is the link to the poster:
http://vipersgarden.at/PDF/PosterSalamandraSalWerneri.pdf

Mario 

Thanks a lot, Mario, you're faster than me ;-).

As you can see, they start by stating that werneri is described from Pilion, but without describing the subspecies' range (I think: because no one knows), they imply that all of them are werneri (see captions of tables and figures). This puzzles me: if all of them are werneri (which I am not saying), how can they ever establish what distinguishes werneri from salamandra with werneri-only samples? Furthermore, a total of 13 animals from 3 locations is (unfortunately) hardly enough. I also would have appreciated some discussion of the relevance of the used characteristics (e.g. prognathism) in other subspecies, because that interests me... 

mm... I hope all will be clear when I'll be ready to go there ! 

"All", Frank? Can you wait 100 years? ;-))) 

Single solution: search and photograph every species everywhere :-) 

Thank you very much, Jeroen. I was just considering taking it a little bit easier on my trips (i.e. not taking 15 kg photo-equipment on my back everywhere.)
Oh well, there comes a time ... 

Dear all,

there is far too little data. That's why we just presented a poster with our findings and we also say we don't know where bounderies are. But at least it gives more data than currently published. But for instance genetic data are lacking (our collected samples got lost).
And like in many other population of Salamandra salamandra (for instance "gallaica") there are striking morphological differences between the different populations which proably are more related to the habitat and perhaps to the isolation of these populations.
But...this is true for the whole of the Balcans. Future research should also include "beschkovi" which is probably just a local "morphotype" instead of a real subspecies.

A nice subject just waiting for a researcher to grab it....


 

I'm interested in this. Sorry to take it off (Greek) topic, but what is it that makes ssp. beshkovi different from salamandra? I think I remember reading that it has shorter limbs than ssp. salamandra, is that all? My family own a place in the Pirin Mountains and this (sub)species I would like to see. 

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