Never handled any wild snakes myself but Captives?
Most Corn Snakes (Pantherophis guttata) I have ever handled have bitten me, must smell bad to a Corn Snake or something. Boa constrictors have also had a fair few bites in.

Only wild snakes we have round here are Adders and I won't mess with them! 

Western Whip snake (Hierophis viridiflavus), in Lyon, 2007

This specimen, hence the poor photos or that particular snake:

Hi Erik,
I’m surprised your Corn Snake is so aggressive, my son has one and it’s very placid,
It will bite though if you have been handling mice.
Your right to say you wouldn’t pick up an Adder Its always best not handle wild Snake’s if your not confident to do so, its easy to be harmed if you haven’t been taught the correct way and the snake can be harmed too.

Daniel, the Western Whip snake (Hierophis viridiflavus) was at top of my list to see in north east Spain, well them and Timon lepidus, I saw lots of Timon though, stunning lizards! I hope to go back there In September next year hopefully I will see Western Whip Snakes then, fingers crossed.

Cheers
Tony
 

You'd need to go into the Pyrenees, where it' greener and more humid 

Tony: I don;t own any Corn Snakes myself, I do have a large collection of Snakes though. I used to work in a pet store, and I would work with all the snakes prior to the small mammals & birds etc to avoid a feeding reaction. Was always Corn Snakes that bit me, anyone else could pick them up no bother but they would bite me, the Pythons and everything else was fine, just Corn Snakes. Got annoying after a while! 

I taught it was only about european species, but as corn snake had pop-up in the discussion, I would say that the North amercian water snake (all the species of the genus Nerodia) are pretty much always "inglorious bastards"... They bite as hell, every time, and they will not tame quickly! Many times, their saliva gave me a sensation of burning too! 

Water snakes in Europe are placid, but you also do sometimes come across a bad tempered specimen, I can think of a few Grass snakes Natirx natrix, that bit me in the past, I think this is the case especially in Spain / Portugal and southern France, where it seems, as Jeroen Speybroeck suggested in a different topic, these specimens may be trying to act like the more aggressive Montpellier snake (Malpolon monspessulanus) 

Erik, I’m not sure why a snake would bite you, but not other people, it must have something to do with scent though!

That interesting Daniel Pouliot, there was some work done on the saliva of non-venomous snakes and it was found that the saliva on some (and I’m not a expert on the matter) contained bacteria anticoagulants and mild venomous properties.

Daniel, Natrix natrix in the UK will very very rarely bite, Infact I have never had one bite in contrast to those I found in Spain they would bite and as you say mimic the Montpellier snake I found them to be more robust then the UK Natrix natrix too, Viperine Snake, Natrix maura as the name suggest would some times bite and mimic vipers.
 

I don't doubt that you are right Tony, I'm not sure what it could be though, perhaps the hand wash I was using or something, i'm not sure and I suppose i'll never find out but it has put me right off Corn Snakes that's for sure! 

Well i think depends cos i can't separate a specie and say this is very aggressive !! For example i have caught Whip snakes (dolichophis caspius) who are very aggressive even they are harmless,in the other hand i have caught individuals of the same specie who never try to bite you so this makes me think that snake's mood changes as it happens with people too...!!! 

The most aggressive i have ever handled was our first wild Large Whip Snake - D. caspius from the Danube Delta.

Second place goes to a Nose-horned Viper - V. ammodytes from Corfu.

But welding gloves will do the trick sooner or later in getting the beasts to pose nicely. :)

Vlad


 

I think, its important to distinguish between beeing angry everytimes forms and those, normally beeing more or less calm.

One example from me are the Pannonian meadow vipers.
Most individuals you may handle without get bitten or the snakes get very nervous.

This young specimen is hold by a girl during our field research program.

Others, you may not come close to a half metre or so. They dont try to escape, they stay and try to bite in every direction.

See this movie of an adult female
http://vipersgarden.at/movies/H_ViperaUrs.wmv
(~ 6.5 MB)

Mario 

Its interesting to here about the temperament of D.caspius, I have never seen a whip snake in the wild but I’m going on a short herping trip to Lesvos in May and I hope to see and photograph P.najadam and D.caspius.
Do you guys have any experience at handling the Ottoman viper (Montivipera xanthina) and could give me an insight into the temperament of them too, I will be tail and hooking one for photographing if I’m lucky enough to see one.

Thanks for the video clip Mario, of all the vipers in Europe the Meadow viper is top of my list to see and photograph, I don’t think I would hold one in my hands though, even a small one lol.


Tony
 

Tony, I´ve seen "hundreds" of specimens of the xanthina complex. And there wasnt one, not being the devil its self. So you should be very carefull to handle those (grip at the tail and hook the body). Also gloves are not the best idea, if specimens are longer than about 60 or 70 cms, because they have quite long teeth, in contrast to berus, aspis, ammodytes.

Mario 

Thanks for your advice Mario and I will do as you say and take extra care, I have also read your account of when you took a bite from a Levant blunt-nosed viper (Macrovipera lebetina obtusa) what you must of gone through was horrific to say the least, you are a very brave man indeed to survive such an attack.
I’m going to use a monopod camera stand with a support bracket and remote shutter release, then I can get in close with the camera but keep a safe distance myself.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-MANFROTTO-MN331-331-MONOPOD-SUPPORT-BRACKET_W0QQitemZ200382859696QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CamerasPhoto_CameraAccessories_TripodsSupports?hash=item2ea7bfc9b0

I will make my own support bracket its much cheaper to do so.



Cheers,
Tony
 

wauw, and here we have two nice pictures of how not to handle a snake! (and I'm not talking about Mario's picture). Damn, after the discussion we had about ethics and field herpetology, I wasn't expecting seeing pictures like this on that forum.
Daniel, I think you should be more clear and more careful about the pictures that are being posted on Euroherp. 

Jean-pierre, I can see why you may be offended by Vlad’s picture, personally I’m not though, especially given the subject matter and heading of this topic.
I’m puzzled though what’s the second picture that you find offensive?


Cheers,
Tony
 

> how not to handle a snake!
+1!

Tony, surely, lifting a large snake by its head causes unnecessary(!) stress to the animal, its upper vertebrae etc. Does not surprise me that this snake was "aggressive", in response to that kind of handling treatment, sorry Vlad. The thread's subject is imho irrelevant as such.

Back on topic - personally, I'd rather talk about "vivid", "lively" or "bity"; "aggressive" has a human violence ring to it, for me, which I associate with attacking without cause.

I'd have to agree with Mario that ursinii is not the phlegmatic creature it's cracked up to be at all - ursinii, macrops, moldavica, graeca all turned out to be quite 'angry'. Never seen rakosiensis myself, but apparently, it's the same. While other European vipers usually calm down after a few threats and bites, these little guys remain annoyed and...euh... aggressive. 

Tony, check out Edmond Themeli's avatar picture, two Viperas (I guess) held high by the tip of the tail! Uh! 

Jean-pierre,I've seen other photos of Edmond Themeli on the net and most of them look like the one on his avatar!Horrible! He's always photographing himself handling snakes in the most unapropriate way(hanging by the tail,etc.)!Just write his name in Google and click Images and you'll see what I'm talking about! Sorry,Edmond but to me this is just a big SHOW OFF! 

A word of warning. Be extremely careful with adult Montivipera xanthina. The animal I found in October was over 100cm long and as thick as a large ratsnake. It was also surprisingly swiff, and when I grabbed its tail it did the loudest hiss I have ever heard from a snake in the wild. Indeed I had to let it go without photographs because the situation was not safe, being on my own.
People sometimes underestimate what a seriously dangerous snake the Ottoman viper is compared to other european species.
Matt 

Regarding handling/photos etc. I when I was younger was guilty of mishandling some snakes, like I am sure most people on this forum have done at some point (whether many would admit it I am not sure). But now I have matured as a field Herpetologist I have learned from my mistakes and handle all animals with care. Lets just assume that the photo of Vlad is quite an old picture, and since our discussions on the forum he agrees that this is no longer an acceptable way to handle the snake. But this doesnt mean he should delete the picture and never show it to anyone because perhaps catching such a large specimen is quite a memory for him.
I can't say I have ever held a snake like a yoyo, so I cannot defend the other photograph... 

I agree Matt! Of course,everyone of us has made mistakes in the past but some people don't have the ability to learn from them! This guy (Edmond Themeli) wrote in his profile that he catches snakes since he was 8,now he's over 30 and it doesn't seem he had learned anything since than!

P.S. Is it me or one of the vipers on Edmond Themeli's avatar is biting the other one!What the F**K!!! 

Tony,

Your best bet is to skip tailing all together and just use a damn tong.

And if you find 170 bucks lying around get a pair of Snake Gloves and get it over with. I`ve seen what these babies can do. I mean you could pet a huge Crotalus on the head, or tickle an Oxyuranus on the chin like they were Natrix or something.

These gloves provide the highest level of puncture protection to both the palm and back of the hand.In addition to both puncture and sharps resistance, the cut resistance offered is very high.

They provide enhanced gripping surface and extended gauntlet cuff for protection up to the elbow.
Other features include: full protection for the entire hand and forearm, including 3 layer coverage in the palm, back of hand, and thumb.


And best of all, they are are machine washable! :)

@ all members that showed me no love:

I deleted the picture since you were so sensitive and jumpy about it.

But i do not, repeat DO NOT regret taking it in the first place.

The snake was agresive long before i posed wit him. Period. He was just in bad mood that day or something.

We were very careful not to harm the animal the entire photo session, like we do with all our `models`.

And since it was a long awaited LIFER, i decided to have one last picture that will remind me of the epic battle that took place that day with that amazing snake. A hunter and his trophy.

I`ve since encountered D. caspius but i only take pics from a far, or don`t bother at all, since i`m no longer that interested in the snake, once i`ve checked it on the lifelist.

Anyway you can all relax, now that i`ve seen all the snakes i wanted to, there will be no more trophy shots.

But be warned, i plan on kissing my first Eastern Spadefoot.

:))
:))
:))

Later,
Vlad







 

"one last picture that will remind me of the epic battle that took place that day with that amazing snake. A hunter and his trophy."
Well, I assume this is the difference between herping and herp watching? The epic battle to get a trophy shot vs. focusing on the animals? Okay, so I will then go on herp watching.
Greetz 

``Epic battle`` is a joke. My bad. ;)

Anywho... , i did a little herpwatching and birdwatching myself a few days ago.
Only touched one species out of four. And believe you me, sure wish i didn`t have to...

Check it out:

http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29252

Happy herping!
Vlad 

Herpwatching is something I do at home in the UK because I can afford to give the time and patience that it demands.
When I travel abroad time is short and the list of species I would like to see is long, I’m also interested in plants birds and insects, so when abroad I go herping, I don’t see why people cant do both.



Tony
 

@Tony I was not talking about catching, I was talking about epic battles and trophy shots. To me, the presented kind of trophy shots represents a certain lack of respect for the animal. I think there may be a lot of people disagreeing, but I don't see a reason to pose with snakes being held by their tail in front of me or fix a non-venomous snake for the sake of a "I'm a real man that handles wild animals" shot.
For me, the animals are the focus of my herping hobby, not me looking cool or showing off by handling them, more or less(Sic!) appropriately. 

Vlad is being provocative in his replies and I’m not defending that,
He knows what is expected of him on this forum! So can we all get back to talking constructively about herps?
 

To be honest, I think people should just lay off Vlad. He is a regular member of this forum as well as many others and he is very passionate about reptiles and amphibians. And to have people saying he is causing serious harm to the animals he loves, I think is abit of an insult. After all, it is only one picture, and although I cannot prove it, I am pretty sure this snake would have been okay after his encounter with Vlad.

As for trophy shots, after spending days (or weeks?) searching for a target species in the field, I see no harm whatsoever after a photo session with the animal itself in having a photo of the person with the animal to savour the moment Its all based on the passion for the animal, and rather 'look what I found after so many hours of searching' rather than 'look how brave I am'. This is at least the case with me.

Matt 

Thank you Matt.

Now that the creator of this AMAZING site understood my real intentions, let`s drop this, and be friends.
I really love all the good people on this forum that put in time and effort to promote fieldherping. I am thrilled to see you go the extra mile in promoting ethical herping, i really do.

And i am sure most of you know that my wife and i LOVE herps and all living things, and mean them no harm. We take part in reptile rescue missions, volunteer for conservation projects, research and education, and try do our best as ambassadors of fieldherping in Romania and Moldavia.

Please read my initial report about the Whip Snake. It really was a special trip for us, especially for me.

http://www.euroherp.com/Field/romania4.html

Thank you all, and my apologies to Tony for `stealing` his thread.

Vlad



 

No need to apologies Vlad, great report!
I’m looking forward to a picture of you kissing a spadefoot too, ha.ha.



Tony
 

Sorry Ilian but you got anything wrong.Is true i have photos handling snakes by their tails but no one have the right to tell me i am a sadist and love to torture animals.Is true i a m catching snakes since i was 7 years old but never killed any just for pleasure.Think what you like,i don't care cos animals (not only snakes) are my passion of life and my weakness.Of course maybe i have done something wrong because of wrong training but you said you have searched for my pics through google i tell you to search how many snake enthusiasts are in Albania and then we can talk again.I have to say once more that shot was a coincidence and i haven't provoked the snakes to bit each other. 

I am back to ask you again ? If i make a photo kissing a snake will you change your opinion ? And you should attack people who really find sadistic pleasure killing snakes and other animals because of their retarded mentality.But anyway i don't care as long as i feel no guilt at all. 

Okay, there seems to be quite alot of bitching on this forum which is not what myself and Daniel intended to see when we started it.

Edmond, I have no doubt about your passion for the animals, but holding a snake by the tip of the tail does cause a considerable amount of damage. So please do not use any such images on the website in the future. You make a very good point about not too many reptile enthusiasts (at least what we know of) from Albania so I applaud you for this.

Sometimes you have to put things into perspective, for example with Vlads photograph. He may have held the animal by the neck, but it is probable that if a Romanian farmer had encountered the same snake instead of Vlad he would most probably have smashed it with a shovel or whatever. A far less fortunate encounter than being captured and held inappropiately for a couple of minutes.

 

For me, there's nothing wrong with trophy shots, even though some people (incl. myself, actually, despite the fact that you will find some in my own reports too ;-)...) might find them a bit silly or macho.

> i feel no guilt at all.
Yet, you changed your profile picture ;-))).

However, this is about the way you handle the animals. It's just so easy NOT to handle a snake like that... Saying that you would really hurt the animal, might even be exaggerated: that's irrelevant to me. While I don't really like the sentimentalism of some animal welfare activists at all, I would like to suggest that you/we/everyone try to hold animals in a way that does not put unnecessary force or stress to their bodies. Of course, some animals require a firmer grip than others (if you really want or "have" to catch them, in the first place), but holding (especially) a (big) snake like that, can hardly be OK for its vertebral column in my opinion. Of course, I don't want to crucify you. You are both people with an admirable passion for snakes, there are tons of bigger threats to snakes and nature in general and blablabla. The fact that you are the only snake lover in your country is -to me- irrelevant, although it's perhaps also sad ;-), but let's not get all worked up. In other words: this is not a big issue (to me), but still worth pointing out. In the end, we can hardly tell each other what to do & that's mainly a good thing, in my opinion.

P.S.: I have also seen professional herpetologists handling snakes equally 'rough'.
P.S.: Why are vipers so popular among many herpers? Macho? Anxiety of dealing with a certain danger? ;-) 

Matt wrote: "Its all based on the passion for the animal, and rather 'look what I found after so many hours of searching' rather than 'look how brave I am'."

This also? ;-)

Sorry, Edmond: you are of course a free man, and you can do what you want, but in my personal opinion (which you are free to find complete rubbish, of course) this is (a) bad for the snakes' tail columns and (b) a bit silly... 

Having said all that, I would really like to visit Albania some day, and -of course- than I would be talking to you about that. I just wanted to spit this out. Now that I did, let's forget about it. 

Winter makes herpers irascible ;-). 

To be honest i never wanted to show the people how "brave" i am !! But i want to teach them that snakes are not as dangerous as they look apparently and my intention are good.I mean wanna teach them to respect animals and to reduce somehow the useless killings.I am sure that mos of you don't know how disrespectful are here people against animals.I have spoken with many people who don't see the differences between a snake and a glass lizard or between a harmless snake and a venomous and some are opened to learn when most of them don't care and say all the snakes should be annihilated.I think a wrong thing is religion.You may ask why ? Because the Bible says the snake is the symbol of evil and sadly many people here agree with that.I think some trips should be organised here often.With all others have said about trating snakes by me are all true and i promise to make a better turn next time.All the best from my part. 

> Because the Bible says the snake is the symbol of evil
I'm afraid it's even more fundamental than that - even monkeys have an instinctive (so not learned but inherited from their parents) fear of snakes. Nevertheless, the biblical snake will of course not have helped ;-).

Many snakes have spaced bars or spots on their body, which cause a stroboscopic effect when they are moving (fast)(cf. with the illusion that a car tyre is turning backwards), and this is scary for many animals (predators) too. Or at least: that's a theory I picked up. 

P.S.: Why are vipers so popular among many herpers? Macho? Anxiety of dealing with a certain danger?

Hi Jeroen
I think people have a healthy respect and fascination for something that has the ability to kill you, “Adrenalin junkies” or something like that.

That isn’t the reason I posed the question though, I have 35 years experience at handling Vipera berus but that’s the only viper I have ever handled, an Ottoman viper is a big step up so I’m looking for the best advice on how to do that so its as safe as possible both for the snake and myself.
Not handling one isn’t an option if I can’t get a good picture of one without handling it.
There is lots of other snake on that island that I would like to see and photograph like the dwarf snake, sand boa, leopard snake, cat snake and whip snakes but I’m confident at handling those if I’m lucky enough to see any.



Tony
 

> I’m looking for the best advice
Of course, and right you are. Was not directed at you, Tony. Just a general question I've been asking myself, as I noticed over the years how vipers are the top section of the European herpetofauna for many/most European herpers... 

@Jeroen Well, I don't keep vipers myself, but have kept rat snakes for quite some years in captivity. So I am pretty much used to common rat snake behavior and, thus, the behavior, look, etc. of vipers is simply something I don't have every day.
I think you are right, one part of the fascination may also be the venom, but the other is their way of life that differs from most other european snakes. On the other hand, I think there are european snakes that are admired in the same way, just to mention Malpolon (well, sadly also something somehow venomous...) with its special characteristics or Z. situla because of its colors.

Regarding the trophy shots, and this has imho nothing to do with bitching, I would like to state that Vlads avatar is a very nice "trophy shot" that does, imho, in no way show a kind of disrespect for the animals. It is indeed very nice, because it combines field herper and animal in a respectful scene. My statements above are btw. in no way a personal thing. I also find it disrespectful how some snakes are presented/handled on TV; don't think mentioning specific names is needed. However, I hope that the admins do not label any comment about ethics in fieldherping as bitching.

Regards,
Michael 

Of course I don't refer to field ethics as bitching, if you knew me you would know I take the care of animals very seriously. Its just I don't like to come on here and see people arguing, if you don't like how somebody conducts themselves as a field Herpetologist offer some advice in a polite way, instead of making them feel like that are commiting a crime.

Anyway lets leave this alone now. 

Vipers as far as i know are the only venomous species that live in Albania and of course in all Europe also.The only reason that in many of my pics i got them by their tails is because i don't use any particular tool to catch them but only my bare hands.I used to catch hundreds of whip snakes (dolichophis caspius) and Biro (albanian name for malpolon monspessulanus) because i have done the military service in a city called Kucova where it was a great place for malpolon snakes.I always try to catch them and release them outside the barbed wires to save them from other soldiers,that was all i could do.I live in Korca which is a bit colder area for snakes but anyway you can find here : Dolichophis Caspius,Elaphe Longissima,Natrix Natrix,Vipera Ammodytes,Natrix Tesellata and Coronella Austriaca but if you go to Permeti,Saranda,Himara,Ksamil...you can find all the species that live in Albania.My goal of this Spring is to find any Coluber Najadum,Elaphe Longissima and Elaphe Quatuorlineata. 

well.. havent handled that many yet.. so it must be one of the adders (vipera berus) that lives over my house :D Btw maybe i find Malpolon Insignitus in Croatia this comming holiday.. let's hope it wohn't be as agressive as your Montepellier :D 

M.insignitus is always an aggressive snake.
The most aggressive snake I've ever handled (I could say species in general) was Macrovipera schweizeri, end of May. Never stop hissing and biting no matter how long and even if I stand 2 meters away. 

Ilias wrote: "The most aggressive snake I've ever handled (I could say species in general) was Macrovipera schweizeri, end of May. Never stop hissing and biting no matter how long and even if I stand 2 meters away."

Hmmm... strange: the 20-30 we found we are quite calm... 

I think Edmond Themeli made a valid point when he said this.

“I have caught individuals of the same specie who never try to bite you so this makes me think that snake's mood changes as it happens with people too...!!! “

Its easy to say a given species has a stereo typical behaviour, my own experience suggest snake species are not so predictable as some people think, some non-aggressive species can be aggressive and vice versa, that is unusual behaviour but it does happen!!
Its good to here about your different experiences keep them coming.


Tony
 

Jeroen: "Hmmm... strange: the 20-30 we found we are quite calm... "

Yes I know, you told me before, I saw 8 alive animals and all of them where the most aggressive thing I've ever met. Maybe the heat had something to do about it, I don't know. I've handled D.caspius and M.insignitus in the middle of summer but comparing to what I saw at Milos, they were quite easy :-)

P.S. try to spot a photo with a calm viper in my trip report ;-) All of them where striking until being released. I waited and tried a lot to calm them for better photos, with no result and you know I don't handle snakes in a stressful way :-) 

could it also be that geographical range can make a difference as too their behaviour

Tony
 

Well so... we could say that Dolichopis caspius, Malpolon sp. and middle east vipers are most aggressive or "short-tempered" snakes in Europe?

I didn't handled too many snakes (my priority herping are amphibians) but I think Malpolon monspessulanus is always aggressive when it feels threatened, even young animals, and specially during the courtship in spring/early summer.

5 years ago in a unusual hot spring (early May) when I was going down a rocky path with my mountain bike (not far from home) a great male came out from the scrubs and jumped over me (literally). Unfortunately the animal came against the wheels of the bicycle, so the spokes injured seriously that snake.

This summer I was chasing an huge female, and the speed of the snake was amazing (ran faster than me!) obviously I caught it, but it was hard... 

the most aggressive snake in the wild was A Telescopus fallax in Greece, but i was wearing welding gloves.

the most aggressive snake that i keep, is definitely my Pantherophis obsoletus quadrivittatus.
if i handle this snake, i wear the same gloves. 

from all the snakes you've handled in Greece T.fallax was the most aggressive? Was it really biting? 

it was biting, yes.
i found Sand vipers, dice snakes, Balkan Whip Snakes, gras snakes and so on. 

I've handled over 100 Malpolon insignitus/monspessulanus, and I cannot recall a single snake which was not trying to bite, except ones that had been hit by vehicles. However with correct handling it is possible to calm them very quickly. 

That good to here Matt, the 4ft Malpolon I never held for long.
I also caught two of that years young and found them aggressive too so I never persevered with them.
I’m going back to the same place in northeast Spain in September so if I catch any more I will certainly give them more of a chance to settle down.


Tony
 

Lachesis muta was the most aggresive and dangerous for me. Or only strong with her 210cm? Anyway other Bothrops and Bothriopsis species too.

Under that snakes, european vipers looks really friendly... :) 

Strange to read about the T fallax, I caught one on Krk island and it was probably the calmest snake I have held.The species that has tried to bite me the most is probably the Balkan whip. 

I would have to agree that Telescopus fallax is generally quite docile in my experience, while some specimens are indeed less calm. 

I think he didn't like my smell then :P

it amased me to, i always read about fallax as an gentle snake.
it was a young snake, and i had to turn some rocks before i cought it, perhaps he was stressed?